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Post subject: Re: We have released. This topic is for post-release feedbac
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2021 2:59 am 
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Okay...let's talk about party switching. There's a couple of things I've noticed:

1) The lines spoken at trigger points are entirely based on the position, from 2-4, in the party. Since MC never speaks, his position doesn't matter and I'll always leave him in party position 1. This means, for example, if Robot speaks at a trigger point and he is in party position #2, replaying this point with Urnie in position #2 would cause Urnie's lines to be shown instead. There are a few exceptions in Chimoy, in which Poyon eats too much drugged food and, despite being in position 2, ends up switching into position 4 at night (after all, you can't speak if you're drugged & asleep...this is automatic, by the way, and also happens in the original Japanese game).

2) As far as I can tell, ALL of the trigger points are set to trigger party lines when you first get there, meaning that subsequent visits to that location will NOT trigger party lines again. This means that the use of save states for this task is necessary.

I counted around 13 total points in the game where your party members have lines and can be switched out prior to the lines. There may be a few more/a few less points, but I won't know exactly until I've spent a little more time going through the game and checking for them.

So, save states. I understand their use can cause problems in this game and is frowned upon, but, short of getting 210 different people to play the game with a different party permutation, I don't think it's possible to do this without save states. Why did I say 210? Because that's how many permutations are available in Chimoy Town, the first point I decided to tackle with party switching. It took me about two days, using save states, to check all the permutations. Without the use of save states, this would become a daunting task, as the nearest save point may be far away from the point where your party needs to be. Also, from what I've seen so far, save states haven't really caused any problems that weren't there to begin with (for example, Dr. Spanner's garbled line in the ending sequence, which happens with and without the use of save states). I'm not advocating the use of save states, mind you, just making a point that they're necessary if party switching is to take place.

Also, since I've been through the game twice, I've enabled cheats, as well. Specifically, the "Walk through walls" code. This cheat alone probably shaved HOURS off the time it took me to cycle through all permutations in Chimoy, as I didn't have to walk around the buildings to reach the inn.

Using this cheat and save states, I found a couple of issues which might otherwise not have been found. I've uploaded my findings in a...mini-report, I guess, which can be downloaded here:

Report 13: https://www.mediafire.com/file/7re54v17 ... +-+Chimoy+[F8C3045E].zip/file

Should I continue with the next point in the game with this party switching? I ask, just in case D-D does not like the use of save states & cheats, for this task. I suppose there's always the possibility that you might check my latest report and determine that it's wrong, and everything I noted there actually works fine (that would truly surprise me, but it's not impossible). Obviously, the incorrect flagging of issues (if they actually work fine) would be a great waste of time for D-D, so maybe I should wait until after you've checked report 13 before resuming this party switching project. For now, I'll see if I can get an exact count of points in the game where party switching can take place.


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Post subject: Re: We have released. This topic is for post-release feedbac
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2021 4:40 am 
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Bwah117 wrote:
Okay...let's talk about party switching. There's a couple of things I've noticed:

1) The lines spoken at trigger points are entirely based on the position, from 2-4, in the party. Since MC never speaks, his position doesn't matter and I'll always leave him in party position 1. This means, for example, if Robot speaks at a trigger point and he is in party position #2, replaying this point with Urnie in position #2 would cause Urnie's lines to be shown instead. There are a few exceptions in Chimoy, in which Poyon eats too much drugged food and, despite being in position 2, ends up switching into position 4 at night (after all, you can't speak if you're drugged & asleep...this is automatic, by the way, and also happens in the original Japanese game).

2) As far as I can tell, ALL of the trigger points are set to trigger party lines when you first get there, meaning that subsequent visits to that location will NOT trigger party lines again. This means that the use of save states for this task is necessary.

I counted around 13 total points in the game where your party members have lines and can be switched out prior to the lines. There may be a few more/a few less points, but I won't know exactly until I've spent a little more time going through the game and checking for them.

So, save states. I understand their use can cause problems in this game and is frowned upon, but, short of getting 210 different people to play the game with a different party permutation, I don't think it's possible to do this without save states. Why did I say 210? Because that's how many permutations are available in Chimoy Town, the first point I decided to tackle with party switching. It took me about two days, using save states, to check all the permutations. Without the use of save states, this would become a daunting task, as the nearest save point may be far away from the point where your party needs to be. Also, from what I've seen so far, save states haven't really caused any problems that weren't there to begin with (for example, Dr. Spanner's garbled line in the ending sequence, which happens with and without the use of save states). I'm not advocating the use of save states, mind you, just making a point that they're necessary if party switching is to take place.

Also, since I've been through the game twice, I've enabled cheats, as well. Specifically, the "Walk through walls" code. This cheat alone probably shaved HOURS off the time it took me to cycle through all permutations in Chimoy, as I didn't have to walk around the buildings to reach the inn.

Using this cheat and save states, I found a couple of issues which might otherwise not have been found. I've uploaded my findings in a...mini-report, I guess, which can be downloaded here:

Report 13: https://www.mediafire.com/file/7re54v17 ... +-+Chimoy+[F8C3045E].zip/file

Should I continue with the next point in the game with this party switching? I ask, just in case D-D does not like the use of save states & cheats, for this task. I suppose there's always the possibility that you might check my latest report and determine that it's wrong, and everything I noted there actually works fine (that would truly surprise me, but it's not impossible). Obviously, the incorrect flagging of issues (if they actually work fine) would be a great waste of time for D-D, so maybe I should wait until after you've checked report 13 before resuming this party switching project. For now, I'll see if I can get an exact count of points in the game where party switching can take place.
No, I would not switch too many more times, as I believe continuing that effort would probably not produce a eureka moment.

It’s not that our team dislikes save-states, I could not do five edits to a scene and proof my formatting and rewrites quickly without them. I do know I can always go back to a previous save and usually play with same character order and find the correct words in a previously corrupted screen. One test I never ran was to play the Japanese Rom from an earlier save and see if I could make the glitch happen in Japanese. I would almost welcome learning that the flaw was caused by the developer.

I suppose the important theory you’ve disproved is that save-states apparently do not cause the problem in English patched ROMs. As for cheats, I’ve used them on occasion. That’s a player choice, and our thoughts on the subject don’t matter. People can post all the codes they want on the boards.

Thanks again for everything you’re doing.


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Post subject: Re: We have released. This topic is for post-release feedbac
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2021 5:26 am 
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Thanks for the quick reply, Wildbill. Very well, then, I'll forget about the party switching. Should you change your mind later on, just let me know & I'll revisit it. To be honest, that would take quite some time, so I'll admit a part of me is relieved to hear you say that :)

In the meantime, I'll check on a few last things, then I'll focus on the side projects I mentioned earlier.


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Post subject: Re: We have released. This topic is for post-release feedbac
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 9:38 am 
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Though emulator based save states are not recommended, I've actually used them for both Super Shell Monsters Story games (using Snes9x version 1.51) and nothing bad happened. But of course, you should avoid using them for best results as some people have experienced various random bugs and glitches because of their use. Treasure Hunter G is the one game that you absolutely don't want to use save states in. Doing so will really mess up your game and make your current playthrough entirely impossible. Stick to game based srm saves only when playing it.


"Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind."
- Edward D. Morrison (Tales of Phantasia)


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Post subject: Re: We have released. This topic is for post-release feedbac
PostPosted: Fri Jan 29, 2021 10:19 pm 
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Hi, Recca. I usually don't use save states when playing, unless I'm testing a game. Some games are quite long, so how do you go about reproducing a problem that happens, say, ten hours into the game at a specific point? That's where save states shine, in my opinion. Typically, when I'm testing a game, I'll CREATE a new save state at every new place I reach in the game, that way any problem can be reproduced by reloading said save state. Yeah, I do end up with a lot of save states (140 for SSMS-II), but most of them go unused. My thinking is that it's better to have a save state and not need it, than need it and not have it. That's why I usually err on the side of caution and make save states left and right.

Also, for this specific task I was referring to (party switching), it's impossible to do it without save states. You're probably already familiar with what I call "party switching", but, in a nutshell, it's the process of switching party members in SSMS-II, at each point where your party speaks, so you can see EVERYONE'S lines. Bear in mind that these lines usually only trigger ONCE, so revisiting the same place you've already been to will not produce any lines. Saving the game before you trigger those lines? Not a bad idea, but saving your game is a bit of a hassle in SSMS-II, as you can only save your game in a dungeon's save point (aside from the Village of Faith, once you open it).

You might think I was only talking about switching out party members 5 or 6 times. No, unfortunately, what I meant was stepping through all the available party permutations, which in Chimoy Town is 210 (which you have to double, because Chimoy Town has two ways to play through it). So, overall, that's 420 times I played through Chimoy Town. It took me two days to go through all available permutations in Chimoy Town with save states. Without save states? Well, let's just say that no sane person would try this without save states, as the time it would take would increase considerably.

Actually, there IS another way to do this without save states, but that's never going to happen: get 210 people to play, and have each choose one of the different parties. That's just for Chimoy, though...at different points in the game, the total goes up to 504 different permutations, but that's because all party members are available at different points.

In any case, save states do have their use. This application of save states is a little different than most people's use, when their party is accidentally wiped out by a boss and they just reload the save state. My use of save states is mainly for catching bugs/typos/errors in cut scenes/making game maps, not to actually play through the game normally. Most of the time, save states can be used with no negative impact on the game, but, yes, there are some games out there for which you should NOT use save states. I remember reading about one game where save states can really mess up your entire game...it might have been Treasure Hunter G, come to think of it, so thanks for the tip!


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Post subject: Re: We have released. This topic is for post-release feedbac
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2021 3:41 am 
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I know what you meant and was just trying to say that I think using save states for this game is fine as long as you don't overdo it in certain areas. For example, loading during a cutscene might increase the chances of the game freezing or glitching up somehow. In your case, yes, using save states is definitely a huge time saver rather than constantly having to reset and load from a game/srm save each time you want to swap out certain characters, which is entirely understandable. Most games can indeed handle them just fine with only a few exceptions such as Treasure Hunter G as mentioned before. I also use save states from time to time when playing games either for convenience or when I have to quickly exit and don't have the time to reach a save point. Built-in game saves are more stable and reliable overall, but much less convenient usually.

Fast forwarding can also sometimes cause a game to freeze or crash, but it also seems like a rare occurrence. It depends not only on the game, but also which emulator is used when playing. If you're interested in seeing all the possible lines and dialogues in this game, I'm sure that Wildbill could provide you with the proper text files if needed. Some characters do indeed have a bit more to say in certain parts of the game if they're in your party at the time, but it's generally not too much of a significant difference. Although, I guess this wouldn't be very useful if you're playing or testing to see the actual lines in-game. Well in any case, I wish you the best of luck!


"Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind."
- Edward D. Morrison (Tales of Phantasia)


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Post subject: Re: We have released. This topic is for post-release feedbac
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:19 pm 
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Will you fix all the things Bwah has found? If yes, I will wait for the updated version until I start my playtrough of the game!


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Post subject: Re: We have released. This topic is for post-release feedbac
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:59 pm 
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Pete wrote:
Will you fix all the things Bwah has found? If yes, I will wait for the updated version until I start my playtrough of the game!
Nah, Pete, not right away. At the moment, I have three different games I am advancing concurrently. I need to run a few ideas by Taskforce first before I can predict when we will update reports on released games that extend all the way back through the two Arethas to the first SSMS. These days, our active staff here is down to what you might call a "skeleton crew"!


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Post subject: Re: We have released. This topic is for post-release feedbac
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 5:59 am 
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Wildbill wrote:
Pete wrote:
Will you fix all the things Bwah has found? If yes, I will wait for the updated version until I start my playtrough of the game!
Nah, Pete, not right away. At the moment, I have three different games I am advancing concurrently. I need to run a few ideas by Taskforce first before I can predict when we will update reports on released games that extend all the way back through the two Arethas to the first SSMS. These days, our active staff here is down to what you might call a "skeleton crew"!


Yeah, and that is the skeleton of a pirate that was already missing a foot and an arm :D


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Post subject: Re: We have released. This topic is for post-release feedbac
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:24 pm 
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Lol, better a skeleton than stone-dead!!


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