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Post subject: Re: SSMS Criticism
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:38 pm 
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I've seen the review on romhacking.net and also was a beta tester for the game itself. I have 2 MAJOR issues with that review.

First, the review was posted by someone who didn't play the game itself. Or, if he did, he certainly didn't discuss said game at any point. Just went on a bashing party pointing to something someone else said in a twitter thread. I'll give the guy in the twitter thread credit, he did provide 4 examples of his issue with the writing in the game. However, even in his case, I'm not sure he ever played the game. He extracted the script and did a search for a particular word. Either way, at least he gave examples we can discuss.

Second, he says ALL Wildbill's work is like this. No examples what so ever. I will admit that Wildbill might have gotten a little zealous with the references to government as stated in the twitter post. However, a broad statement like that is just ridiculous. Again, absolutely no proof what so ever, just a general statement. I've played several of Wildbill's games at this point. Please show me all of these issues in Villgust. Go on, I'm waiting. No, how about Phantasy Star Gaiden. (You will find an issue someone had, and I admit to it being there) The changing of the word Clone to Daughter and I take the blame for that. Any of the others?

My point is this. While what he is saying about this particular project may or may not be true. Why should we care if all he and you yourself want to do is just give us a general uninformed bashing. If you want to play the game and then come back and give us a proper informed constructive critique, feel free. If you want to take someone else's word for it, that is your prerogative but quit treating it like first hand info.

BTW: Just to set the record straight, lets clear up two other points you've made. This game is in no way the cute game you take it for. It has some VERY dark themes including mass murder as part of the plot. Cute graphics don't always mean a cute game.

The other thing, where in the heck did you get the idea because a game comes from Japan it can't have Christian and pseudo-Christian themes (unless it is an apocalyptic story)? Don't tell me you've never seen a nun in a game? I don't think these nuns are modeled after the Shinto faith! Princess Minerva has 1 in every town, including a full Christian like Church to accompany her as well. Now, they serve the Goddess in this particular game and not God. BTW: Note the capital on Goddess. She is the one religious entity of this game and therefore IS capitalized. God can be capitalized in fantasy and not be referring to Christianity. However, I'm not saying it isn't either. Depends on the game.

Anyway, my final point is, Japan doesn't live in a bubble and they use Christianity for a theme FAR more than you probably realize in all media. Want other examples. Ever watch the anime A Certain Magical Index. The main girl is a Catholic Nun if I'm not mistaken. Ambitions of Oda Nobona. Has a nun that comes over from Portugal to spread the word of the Christian church in Japan during the Edo period. (BTW: This was actually a thing that really occurred!) Do you think there are no Christians in Japan? If so, than you might want to get more informed. Just because Shintoism is the biggest religion doesn't make it the only religion. There are churches in Japan as well. Now the Japanese are going to be more likely to use Christianity in ways Christians might not approve of but use it they do, a lot.


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Post subject: Re: SSMS Criticism
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:01 pm 
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And stuff like this is why I cancelled my facebook account. I am political to a point, but I don't wear it on my shoulders. When I read this stuff, I think, "over sensitivity", and I see myself as a moderate liberal / independent. Anyway, people need to relax. It's a game. A hobby. It is also FREE. I can say bleep this and spend all my time with my wife and two kids, but these guys are like family, and I enjoy my time here. My wife knows them and understands our relationship. So when a person or persons attempt a character hit, it feels personal. Either you play the game and not take it so seriously, or you don't. Professionals did not spend the time localizing this game, we did.

I felt a bit bothered by people who complained about the game not having a VWF for the 8x8 menu text. That was so petty to me, and it felt shallow. I no longer care anymore. I do what I do for D-D and that is all. Good day.


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Post subject: Re: SSMS Criticism
PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:47 pm 
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Heh, they should love Minerva then, but I still consider it a bunch of L33tist bull that people think a game has to have a VWF because it can, so don't get me started Bongo`. A VWF is no more readable than an FWF is and in some cases an FWF can be more readable in all honesty. Bashing a game for not having one is just silly. I don't like those little teeny tiny fonts some groups use but I'm not lighting the internet up about it, though I will talk about it on our forums because of the relevance to our group.


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Post subject: Re: SSMS Criticism
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:34 am 
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Draken wrote:
@tcaud

I would have responded to more of your issues earlier, but I had to head out the door for work, so let me do a better job addressing them presently:

1. Yes, there is tongue-in-cheek usage of the terms dynamic designs, which as you so cleverly noticed is a reference to us... If that is enough to ruin the immersive experience for you, then I'm sorry, but you're the only one to respond negatively to it, so I'm not sure if it's that big of an issue. I have played MANY games that had a name of a developer snuck into them somewhere, and I always remember responding to it positively. FFIV had an entire room with developer names from the real world... Was it a "red flag" of something?

2. David is the name that youtube content creator chose for the protagonist, so this concern of having a protagonist with a Judeo-Christian name shouldn't be blamed on us! We weren't the one's being religious this time!

3. "Jonah and the whale" is an instance that I believe WB added as I can't find any reference to it in my older versions of the scripts. This would indeed be a situation where the writer created something to make the script a bit more interesting. If this bothers you, again I apologize. I can also promise you that its mention and use will in no way be an attempt by WB to wean you over to the Judeo-Christian faith... It is just there for fun... Oh, and the game has a whale named Moby... Don't get angry at us, though. It's also in the original text.

4. "God's green Shelldorado" is a little pun on "God's green Earth". Is the word "God" making you upset again? For reference, (and this is just one of MANY) here's a bit of original Japanese text. I would like you to go plug it into google translate...
リンダ… お前達のおかげで
私達や 他のみんなも やっと
神に召されることができる…
See? This game does make reference to God (or god if you prefer), so again, this is something from the original text.

Okay... I'm really not trying to pile crap on you here. I'm just hoping you'll see that you've gotten all riled up by some of the negative comments out there about our work on this game. I really wanted to have this conversation because there are many people who have read the criticism and made the decision to crap all over the work and not enjoy playing the game.

With all that I've written, I want you to know that I was a beta tester for this game. I'm a fairly liberal-minded person, and I took issue with parts of script that had been altered to reflect a more right-leaning philosophy. They don't pop-up often, but they are in there nonetheless, and I'm not going to pretend that the script doesn't have any. Some of the changes I recommended where made, and some of them were not. I was not in charge of production, but I did my best to make WB aware that certain lines of text might alienate some people who want to play the game. Fast-forward to now, and I can see that maybe my warning has come true. At the same time, though, I would caution we shouldn't let opposing viewpoints be something that we refuse to acknowledge. We just need to relax and enjoy the game for what it is, because it's a really fun game to play! If you can ignore the few instances that pop-up, I'm sure that you, too, will have a rewarding experience playing the game.


It just brings to me the question of "what was originally there"? Another thing is that this game's script is just so far off from Judiac basis. Again, Terranigma was explicit: the hero in the game is hinted at being Jesus and Dark Gaia is explicitly said to be the devil. Xenosaga features Jesus as a party member and runs through the whole book of Revelation with its characters. There's just no point in shoehorning religious content into a game which doesn't emphasize it. I mean, did WildBill even back Xenosaga, or was he one of the people who called it pretentious garbage? Shoving doctrine into a product not built around it is hardly better than babelfishing the translation. It's too bad Draken that they didn't take your advice. The only value the game has for me is the story. Gameplay-wise, I could probably have more fun playing various Steam games and Newgrounds flash stuff. But maybe the story could be interesting and shed some light on this or that. Maybe it's worth discussion in its own right. But if the translation is a religiously motivated censorship of the original text... then that's as far away from the purpose of this community as I understand it as I can think of. As for why I've not played the game, I prefer playing earlier games, when possible, and working my way up to the later games... kind of like CRPG Addict, I want to see it all and live that moment in time.

Nevertheless... I recommend that the Zak translation be vetted for faithfulness, reason being with all the work getting done in the PC-98 scene, that series is likely to see a revival in a couple years or so, and while the copyright holders may not be that perturbed about fan translations of old versions floating around, it would be a different story if they thought those works were pushing far right politics (that can hurt your rep bad in Japan gamedev, or any arts scene really). In some countries that may count as "misrepresenting the original", which is a crime in its own right, now.


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Post subject: Re: SSMS Criticism
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 7:59 am 
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As I mentioned earlier, the areas I had problems with in SSMS were those in which a political message had been incorporated. The "God" references didn't bother me because for the vast majority, they were already in the original script. I could list dozens of instances in which the word "god" (in Japanese, of course) appears in the original text, but I don't think that would change your mind. The fact that a reference is made to "Jonah and the whale" (and does not even attempt to teach scripture or change anyone's mind on religion) should not be a big deal. To my knowledge, no religious censorship exists in the patch, and I don't know why you'd assume there would be...?

On to Zak... If you'd looked at the project page, you'd notice WildBill's name absent (he seems to be the person you have a giant beef with). He was on hiatus when this project was handled, and I was the translator/editor/writer/coordinator for the game in its entirety. As stated in the readme and all over the place, the translation was based off the French scripts. It's very possible that something is not 100% in-line with the original text, but that is exactly why I was frank about the translation process. I can assure you there were zero religious references added, nor where there any political messages added to the scripts.

This brings me to localization... You are NEVER going to get an exact translation in all of the games you play, whether they are fan translations or official ones. As someone mentioned earlier, there are some references that will be lost in translation, and you are forced to look for suitable replacements. In addition, sometimes the material is soooooo bland. I could give you examples from G.O.D. where the dialog was so boring and uninspiring - a series of A: Huh? B: What...? C: Who? A: Oh, my. This kind of crap dialog (even the translator melonseller commented on how bad the script was) just begs for some spicing up, and I could never release a project with such terrible writing. Before I attempt to add better dialog (always staying in the area of the original translation), I ask the translator's permission first because I never want him/her to feel like I've butchered his/her hard work. Translation can take a lot of effort and research at times, and having someone go in and totally change something you spent an hour piecing together could be frustrating.

You know... When you first posted, I had really hoped that it would have opened up a great conversation. I was really looking forward to speaking with someone who had played through the game (have you ever played any of our games?) and would have some real criticism. As I've mentioned before, I LOVE getting feedback. When I have beta testers working for me, I always encourage them to pick apart all the text and contact me with ANY LITTLE THING that they think sounds weird. I do this because I always want to produce the most playable patch for the most people. Sadly, though, I'm not sure you have the right "ammo" to sit down and take shots at us... I still strongly encourage you to play through the games you are criticizing, but we both know that's not going to happen.


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Post subject: Re: SSMS Criticism
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 8:07 am 
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Yep, you guys are family, my brothers. Like many brothers, we occasionally have fusses. At the end of the day we have perspective. I don't need to define that, knowing that none of us has ever set out to intentionally ruffle another. Our work reflects it. That's called respect, a dignity we retain in a "gimme sumptin' free" world increasingly devoid of civility, even though many good folks always drop by to say thanks. This continues to make sharing our patches with the general public worthwhile. That said, I'm back to work with my limited hobby time, trying to work the last few floors to the final boss's perch in SSMS-II. The game remains stable, but I do have one new late game menu that's busted. So, let's also continue putting our time and energy toward looking after each other as best we can and enjoying the fruits of our hobby labors.


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Post subject: Re: SSMS Criticism
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:58 am 
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@Wildbill @Draken .. Well said guys, I totally agree.

Quote:
"Maybe it's worth discussion in its own right"

It certainly IS with people who have played the game.

Quote:
"As for why I've not played the game, I prefer playing earlier games, when possible, and working my way up to the later games."

I'm sorry D-D BUT... this guy has no rights what so ever to come here and cry about a game's translation he hasn't even played himself,
I would just lock this topic and totally forget this conversation took place with him, clearly he's just out to try and get a reaction and
cause some type of rift between you guys, to what ends..? who knows.. maybe he's just jealous you guys are releasing such great work.

Keep up the good work D-D Team!!


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FF:MQ, SsmS1, DQ1+2, LoZ:TtQ, Xak, SoM, 3x3 Eyes, Young Merlin, Princess Minerva


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Post subject: Re: SSMS Criticism
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:19 pm 
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Damn, you sure have a lot of complaints for someone who is getting these translations for free! Seriously, it's not like you paid for them and want your money back. You're welcome to express your opinion freely, but don't go attacking and insulting people out of the blue. Especially because of some random Twitter post or bad review on RHDN. And by the way, there is no Romanian translation for SSMS, but thanks anyways for the vote of confidence. While I try to keep a neutral tone and the script translation as close to the original as possible, that doesn't mean that Wildbill or anyone else for the matter can't try using a different writing style to attempt to localize the script better for English speakers.

I don't know why people always accuse conservatives of being aggressive when it's you ultra liberals that attack everyone who doesn't agree with your views both verbally and physically. Seriously, I've seen huge mobs of liberals blindly attacking people who disagree with them far too often. In reality, there's nothing actually "liberal" about you people. You're more like the Spanish Inquisition, or rather the "liberal inquisition" I should say, aiming to destroy any and all opposition (not all liberals, just the ultra liberal ones). Trump won fair and square, now get over it and stop attacking his supporters everywhere you see. No conservatives went on wild destructive riots when Obama won. You can't expect to stay in power forever and rule with an iron fist that smashes all opposing views. As for the "can't spell in English comment", Wildbill and most conservative supporters in general are intelligent and have excellent grammatical skills. I've actually found that most liberal supporters are aggressive, hateful, intolerant, uneducated and misinformed about a lot of things in the world. Why do most of you tend to blindly follow what you hear on mainstream media without doing some actual research on your own first? Not to mention that Draken is right, this game was translated before Trump was even elected.

I've also had a few disagreements with Wildbill in the past, but we didn't start a flame war over it. Attacking someone's faith for no reason is never acceptable. I'm not at all religious, but I don't have a problem with a game that has Christian themes in it at all. Frankly, I truly don't see what the big problem is? If you've actually taken that time to speak with everyone here, you'll find that they're all highly intelligent, trustworthy and honest, nice people. Don't go around judging people based on what another person may have said about them without first finding out for yourself what they're really like. And again, sorry for any of you liberals reading this. My intention was not to attack all of you as a whole, but rather just the misguided ultra liberals that consistently target any and all conservatives out of pure hatred and spite.

Edit: I don't mean to continue this conversation for longer than it needs to be as I am getting tired of arguing about politics everywhere I go for years now, but I will say one last thing. Notice how everyone here was nice enough to let you post your comments and continue the discussion. If you try that anywhere else, you'll most likely get your thread locked and/or deleted. This is especially true on liberal forums where no conservatives can voice their opinion on anything. I've never seen such hypocrisy in my entire life as with most liberals these days. It seems like everything you accuse conservatives of doing, you do it yourselves and many times worse at that. RHDN even removed their entire "General Discussion" board just to silence everyone. You'll never see that type of thing here so remember that before you go throwing insults left and right. Byuu got banned on RHDN just because he disagreed with Nightcrawler on a minor moderation issue. Now seriously, what the heck is that? At least we don't have any people going on crazy power trips like that here...


"Truly, if there is evil in this world, it lies within the heart of mankind."
- Edward D. Morrison (Tales of Phantasia)


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Post subject: Re: SSMS Criticism
PostPosted: Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:47 pm 
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Well, I posted a few things and just deleted them. Let me just say this, when you want to actually try one of our translations and then come talk about it, we'll be glad to listen to respectful critiques or criticism you might give, until then, we frankly don't give a hoot about anything you have to say. Since you refuse to play our games, we don't consider you part of our target audience so why should we care what you think? I'm sorry if that sounds cold as we do care what players think, we just don't care what haters think. And you've obviously falling into the latter category with that last post. By talking about a game (Xak) you not only haven't played but have no idea what is even in it, it is obvious you just want to see how far you can cause trouble. Please go cause it elsewhere.

Recca: I'd even go further, conservatives usually respect the fact that others might have a different view than themselves but liberals don't think you should have that right. They want to force you to believe what they believe like it or not.


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Post subject: Re: SSMS Criticism
PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:30 am 
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I don't want to play translations that break the suspension of disbelief. That's bad gameplay.

You guys are pretty well wrapped around WildBill's finger, so I think the solution is to ask someone like Ein ni Hen to review the parts that have bogus political content in them and retranslate. Of course this will require access to the compression tools, which I hope will be available.

I'll play Aretha when it's done. I figured G.O.D. was a toad from the outset, not surprised its script is bland.


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