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Post subject: Re: Aretha English Patch V1.00 Released!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:23 am 
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...! is used in writing all the time. This is a very valid use of something that is trailing off but still said with surprise as well as other uses. I don't know how Wildbill feels, but I wouldn't alter them since they are an allowed and valid used punctuation.


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Post subject: Re: Aretha English Patch V1.00 Released!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:08 am 
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taskforce wrote:
...! is used in writing all the time. This is a very valid use of something that is trailing off but still said with surprise as well as other uses. I don't know how Wildbill feels, but I wouldn't alter them since they are an allowed and valid used punctuation.
I mirror this sentiment.

On ellipsis overall, I've probably said this before, but my current MO is to reduce all ellipsis to periods or simply remove them during the translation process. I then add them back in if the text seems odd, or loses meaning without them. If not, then they stay gone.

Punctuation on the whole is "wasei eigo", or stuff imported from English but used differently in Japanese. Japanese is not a romance language and didn't evolve with punctuation as a necessary function of its written language. Punctuation is a relatively modern addition and is therefore used somewhat haphazardly. It's more equivalent to our usage of smilies, or emoji.

tobasoft wrote:
Love the game so far. Tried to submit the news to romhacking.net and was told I really suck at submitting news and I shouldn't do it again. So I absolutely will never try something like that again.

Anyway, thank you so much for this. It's a fun, and slightly frustrating game. the spritework is gorgeous though.
I just wanted to say that while hazing noobs on RHDN is pretty standard, that PS message was completely uncalled for. Sorry you had to go through that. The whole point of the site is so anyone can post patches or news, not only authors, or regulars or whatever. At any rate, I wouldn't worry about it too much. I'll probably post the patch over there at some point if no one else does so.


The Devil takes notes from Lina Inverse? That sounds about right.

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Post subject: Re: Aretha English Patch V1.00 Released!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 6:06 am 
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Sorry it took so long to post...long day at work.

Wildbill: If the original Japanese used all those ellipses, then it falls on you to decide whether or not to leave them in. That thought actually crossed my mind while writing up the last report. I thought all those ellipses were added during the editing phase of the translated script. Honestly, I feel there is an overuse of the ellipsis in the script, but, if this mirrors the original Japanese, then it would be wrong to change them all. Would the story read a little better without so many of them? I think so, but, in translating something into another language, I believe accuracy, clarity, and staying true to the original should come first. I understand you have more pressing matters to attend to, so take your time. The game is not going anywhere, and it can take a back seat at a time like this. Oh, and thank you for your kind words. I've always felt that anything worth doing is worth doing right, so I always try to do the best I can (and 1000 snapshots isn't that much...well, considering the task at hand).

taskforce: Hmm...to be honest, I don't consider myself an expert on punctuation. I have, however, read hundreds of books (let's see...off the top of my head: the complete works of Robert Ludlum [well, his older stuff, anyway, as his newer books just aren't the same], the complete Discworld series, "The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" series, the Chronicles of Amber series, James Clavell's "Shogun", and the list goes on and on), and I'd like to believe that I've picked up some useful things from them besides a bigger vocabulary :) . I honestly can't recall ever seeing an ellipsis followed by an exclamation mark in any of the books I've read. Does that mean it's wrong? Well, my reasoning is that if professional writers avoid using it, it must be for a reason. Don't misunderstand me...I'm not trying to start an argument over ellipses followed by exclamation marks, it's just that in all the sites which discuss punctuation and its usage, they never show an exclamation mark preceded by an ellipsis. Now, I will concede that the English language is always changing, especially in regard to writing, so this may (God forbid) grow in acceptance and become widespread. Take, for example, the interrobang, as they call it (an exclamation mark and a question mark lumped together). I believe punctuation rules don't generally approve of these two punctuation marks ever being used together, but its acceptance seems to be growing (as most people don't find it odd nowadays). Personally, I think the interrobang is fine as long as the original line is a question to begin with. Anyway, we don't have to agree on this, as it's not really that important. Also, I will respect whatever decision Wildbill reaches, as my intent wasn't to get as many edits in the script (rather, it's to point out things which strike me as wrong/in need of an edit). If the general consensus at D-D is that ellipses followed by exclamation marks are fine, then I'll turn a blind eye to them.

filler: I agree with your MO of reducing ellipses to periods when they're unnecessary. There are times, however, where the inclusion of an ellipsis changes the sentence radically, and its removal changes it greatly as well, so one has to be careful and determine whether or not an ellipsis is necessary or not. In this we are in agreement.

I'm sure this discussion regarding punctuation must come up from time to time, and there's bound to be disagreements. Regardless, I'd just like to point out to all that I don't consider myself to be the ultimate authority on punctuation, and if Wildbill decides to scrap all my suggestions regarding the ellipses, I won't take offense. As I've said before, I try to be flexible :).

Edit: Just wanted to mention that I am aware that spaces used with ellipses are valid (some advocate using spaces with ellipses, while others don't). That's more a stylistic choice and, whichever is chosen, it should be the same throughout for consistency.


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Post subject: Re: Aretha English Patch V1.00 Released!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 3:24 pm 
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Bwah117: Sorry, I wasn't trying to pounce on you. I'm still not, but I do want to expand on this. It is true that professional writing would try to avoid these scenarios, but that doesn't mean they aren't valid. You do see ...? on occasion. Even after things have been through editors. Some famous play scripts have had them in there. Otherwise, yes editors try to remove things like this. Just putting the missing words back looks better in books.

From a site devoted to teaching writing.

When using ellipses in conjunction with other punctuation, whether they be commas, semicolons, question marks, or exclamation points, treat the ellipsis as though it was just another word in the sentence.

The truth is that writers who have all the space in the world would likely avoid using these because they want to be descriptive and this is a lack of being descriptive. Especially after they've been through 2 or 3 rounds of editing. However, that doesn't mean that they aren't acceptable either.

You could even have .... at the end of a sentence. That is three ellipses with a period. It can be used to show an awkward pause on a complete sentence.

There is a bigger problem that I haven't touched on though. Space. Book writers have all the space in the world to work with. Need another page to add that missing info, go ahead and add it. However, we don't have that luxury. We are limited by what the game allows us to have. Sometimes we get lucky and can expand to an entire bank and have plenty of room. Sometimes we can't. This is the latter. The text was inserted where it came from. Now Bongo` did some compression and other things to make that as usable as possible, but English always takes up more room than Japanese. So you'll have to forgive an extra abundance of ... on these types of games. It might seem choppy, but it is better than cutting out entire sections of script to make what is there read better.

We can put What the...! and we've used 12 bytes. Or we can expand it to What the hell is happening around here! and use 39 bytes. The problem is those extra 27 bytes have to come from somewhere. It might mean the difference of important information not getting passed along later. We might need those 27 bytes to tell you at some point, You need to proceed south! as an example. Far more important text we might have to cut.

In the end, Wildbill is the writer in charge of this script and it will be his decision, but I did want to touch on this further.


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Post subject: Re: Aretha English Patch V1.00 Released!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:06 am 
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taskforce: Not a problem, and I apologize if my reply came across as overly defensive/mildly aggressive, as it wasn't meant to sound like that. Yeah, you're right about the ellipsis followed by a question mark, so, technically, there's no reason why an exclamation mark should be any different. The main problem, I think, is that English punctuation rules for the ellipsis are not well-defined, and not set in stone like for the comma or the period. I mean, when was the last time you heard any English teacher caution students against using too many periods in a report? Probably never, as periods have well-defined rules which establish their usage. On the other hand, with ellipses we see some people using them a lot, while others caution against their overuse. In a case like that, there's bound to be different opinions. Anyway, I actually spent some time researching about this, but I was unable to find any punctuation rule with expressly forbids the ellipsis being used with an exclamation. I didn't find any rule that sanctions it, either, but the fact that I found nothing prohibiting its use leads me to believe it is probably acceptable. While I'll keep this in consideration the next time I'm writing about ellipses and punctuation, I still can't bring myself to write like that. What can I say...we humans are creatures of habit. While I may not change my own writing style, at least I will no longer fault others who do choose to use this. In any case, I guess it's true what they say...you learn something new every day :)

Oh, and, about space...I know the space available in a rom is important, but I had no idea space was that limited in Aretha. In a perfect world, the writer would have all the space necessary to write the story without having to edit things so everything fits, but a perfect world this is not. That would explain why some of the lines struck me as coming across as a little too terse, and somewhat wooden in a few places. If you don't have the space to make the edits you want, then you just have to do your best with what little space you've got to work with.

I'll definitely bear this in mind as I proceed through the game, but I think I'll wait on new reports until Wildbill returns. That way, I'll have a better picture as to what I should be aiming for. Sorry, everyone...I didn't mean to open a can of worms.


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Post subject: Re: Aretha English Patch V1.00 Released!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:52 pm 
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Nah, I like it when you do pass along anything that you feel needs addressing. We can't consider it if you don't pass it along. I'd rather have it for consideration and then be able to decide than not have had it reported to start with. Everything reported might not get changed but we don't have the option unless it has been reported. And don't worry, I don't feel it was a can of worms, constructive discussion will make us all better at this in the end.


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Post subject: Re: Aretha English Patch V1.00 Released!
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 4:11 am 
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taskforce wrote:
Nah, I like it when you do pass along anything that you feel needs addressing. We can't consider it if you don't pass it along. I'd rather have it for consideration and then be able to decide than not have had it reported to start with. Everything reported might not get changed but we don't have the option unless it has been reported. And don't worry, I don't feel it was a can of worms, constructive discussion will make us all better at this in the end.


That's true, actually, and I'm glad you feel that way. Nowadays, too many people on the internet are quick to insult those with differing opinions, and this usually results in nasty flame wars and, overall, an unpleasant experience. It's nice to be able to discuss things rationally, and it's definitely more constructive. I think it's better to have many different opinions/viewpoints, than only a handful, as this brings things to light things which might be missed otherwise (whether they actually need correction or not). In the end, the end result is that the project is all the better for it, and that is a good thing.

I really do need to get back to the game, but work has been extremely hectic these last few days. Unfortunately, since I work in construction, my daily schedule varies wildly, with some days being "normal" 8-hour days, while others see me working up to 16 hours. Needless to say, on a long day of work, I'm not really going to accomplish much in testing the game. Thankfully, I have a couple of days off from work coming up, so I'll be sure to make some progress in that time (taking snapshots all the way, of course).


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Post subject: Re: Aretha English Patch V1.00 Released!
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2018 9:03 am 
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thanks for another awesome release.

ps: where's the rhdn entry :?:


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Post subject: Re: Aretha English Patch V1.00 Released!
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 6:26 pm 
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Found a stray color control code (if that's what they're called...see attached pic). I think it's due to the missing left bracket. Oh, and this dialogue takes place in Port Listhorn (after Wallace teleports your party there).

I'm posting this mainly because there's very few things requiring correction, yet my snapshot folder currently has around 800 snapshots (no, they don't all need editing, it's just that I'd rather err on the side of caution and have too many snapshots, than not enough, so it's likely this large number is going to be pared down considerably). I'd rather not have to go through all 800+ snapshots just to find this one, so here it is:

Attachment:
higan 2018-09-16 08-51-36-68.png
higan 2018-09-16 08-51-36-68.png [ 139.31 KiB | Viewed 1017 times ]


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Post subject: Re: Aretha English Patch V1.00 Released!
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:12 pm 
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Well, finally beat the game. What can I say...it's a fun game, overall, but there's a few things which the game could have done without:

1- Playing "musical chairs" with the party. I know, it's part of the story, and, initially, I found it refreshing to have my party members leave my party for an actual reason. Later on in the game, however, it became all too common for my returning party member to be 10 (or more) levels below the rest of my party. Also, after the third or fourth time this happened, I realized it was pointless to try to level up my party, as soon some of them would be leaving again. This holds true all the way to the end of the game.

2- No enemy "Life Bar" or damage indicator. For the most part, the system used works very well...until you get to a boss, that is. There's no indication whatsoever (aside from the white color flash) that your hit actually connected, but the damage inflicted is anyone's guess. For the final boss, I used over 15 "Mega Oil B" items, along with my party's strongest spells (Nova, Force B, and Inferno) for 8-10 rounds, and the boss was...just fine, thank you very much. Now, like most of the people playing this game, I consulted Ritchie's FAQ, and he suggests "...use Doll's magic of strength D (80MP) on the group and use normal attack", which I then decided to try since, you know, my 8-10 consecutive rounds of strongest magic coupled with "Mega Oil B" attacks didn't faze him. The result? I had all my party members switch to physical attacks, with occasional healing, and within 3 rounds, the final boss succumbed. This leads me to my final point:

3- Unclear game logic. In RPG's, there is a clear cut difference between physical attacks and magical attacks. This is an established RPG convention. "Aretha" takes into account both "Def" and "MDef" for characters, so the designers were aware of this as well. However, in game, this appears to apply only to party members, as enemy bosses seem to be frustratingly resistant to ALL magic attacks. "Ah!", you say, "I'll just switch to 'Mega Oil B' attacks then, since 'Mega Oil B' is supposed to deal "Catastrophic damage to all enemies."" A sound tactic, considering that 'Mega Oil B' is an item you purchase/find in-game, therefore it counts as a PHYSICAL attack. Well, guess what? That logic doesn't work with bosses...for just about every other enemy, this logic does work, but bosses appear to be an exception to this rule. It seems that, if you wish to use a PHYSICAL attack on a boss, you must strike it with your weapons (let's not even mention the fact that I didn't spend much time with Mixed Form, so my weapons are all from shops/chests, so the damage isn't very high either). Yet, with these same weapons, I was able to defeat the final boss using only physical attacks in three rounds. That...makes no sense. This is probably why the enemies
Spoiler! :
Testdrag and Tributar
are seemingly impossible to kill. I think we're all going in with this preconceived logic, but this game turns that logic on its head.

Overall, the game is enjoyable, and the translation is very good. There's still a few things I need to do in-game (reach level 99 without the Testament, make a complete list of the Mixed Form items/weapons/armor so I can check all the item descriptions, and defeat the two spoilered enemies above). Reaching level 99 will probably take me several days, as I can only stand grinding 8-10 levels per session (I'm at lv. 75 presently, so it won't take me too long to reach 99 anyway). I already reached the max amount of money (999,999), and defeating more enemies will not cause problems with the money 'rolling over', as the "999,999" limit appears to be properly implemented.

Since the remaining things to do are somewhat time-consuming, I decided to beat the game so I can start working on actual reports. These reports will only contain bugs/glitches or things in need of correction, and I'll upload these as I have been doing. On the side, I'll keep plugging away at the rest of the game.

Oh, and it figures you wouldn't (see spoiler below):
Spoiler! :
be able to join both Ariel and Leila until the end of the game. On that note, I thought it was kind of cool that Ariel and Leila's names are palindromes, sort of...kind of. I mean, I'm sure everyone on this board knows about the "L" and "R" issue with Japanese... I don't think it's a coincidence, either, since Ariel is quiet, reserved, and innocent/naïve, whereas Leila appears to be the opposite. In short, two sides of the same coin.
Maybe the second game in the series will pick up where this one left off. In any case, it was a fun game, so...thank you, D-D, for the chance to play it in English! With that, I'm off to write some reports!


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